Update: Firing an employee after maternity
Last month I posted about firing a female employee after maternity that created a debate: https://share.gvine.app/fdu9iQyCrQP6Ehn89 For anyone interested in how things turned out, here it is... TLDR: Employee/new mom filed an FIR, police closed it after she admitted she quit after we tried to put her on a PIP. (In FIR she said she was wrongly terminated) The women's commission of India summoned me after and it was an experience! I got scolded for about 2h by four women... but in the end they just scolded me like angry teachers? I guess they tried to give the lady some satisfaction by humiliating me. Pretty sad if that's all they can do to represent women with genuine cases. Overall the average grapevine user said I was in the wrong for putting a new mom on a PIP, regardless of performance before and after pregnancy. Most critical folks told me I should've informed the employee about performance issues before maternity. Lawyers say I made the right choice and protected the company. It's a bit messed up that laws designed to protect women at work end up making things worse for them. Because of legal fear we went directly to a formal PIP with recorded calls with HR, the direct manager and others refused to do anything without legal advice. But in the end, she filed a case, so perhaps the cold approach recommended by lawyers was sadly correct. Lastly, I finally saw that outside of my own business echo chamber (both men and women business people), society holds pregnant women and new moms valuable above all else. Someone like me who is a bachelor & slave to capitalism has a totally different set of values, as such some people think I'm fair game for insults. But I hope by making products of value I can make a positive impact in my own way. Thanks for providing your perspectives.
BiryaniEnthu
Stealth
10 months ago
Thank you for this closure.
Though it is about perspectives, business is also side that needs to be taken care of.
I recently read about a man being told 'his position is no longer required' a week after he informed his wife was pregnant. So probably it is not about gender.
Also, it was the 55L CTC for me. As a woman who understands business, I felt your perspective was more weighing
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
I also saw that on Twitter, most people criticised the female bosses. But most likely they knew the layoff was coming and decided to let the guy know after he was back.
I guess most folks don't see the business/legal perspective.
Umadbro
Stealth
10 months ago
I think twitter criticism of female bosses come from a different place. Media loves scrutinizing them and criticizing every move. Every journalist is hoping to uncover next Theranos. People just pick up on small things which do not fit their caricature of a female boss. And it cascades into something big.
Honestly, as a lawyer, I'd say this was handled very well by you
Maybe the women's commission scolding could've been avoided, but glad it worked out for you! If you were from a district known for closing civil litigation cases, I'd have recommended you counter sue for damages, but you don't seem like a vindictive person to me and it seems like you want it all to be over
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
Thanks, the legal fees ended up being around 2L. Our lawyer said we can claim damages. But I suspected the lawyer's incentive was billable hours vs getting closure.
I don't know how the women's commission could be avoided, they summoned me after the ex employee submitted a complaint and didn't seem interested in getting my side of the story, or looking at any evidence.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the lawyer intended to do and honestly unless the court or bench in your district was friendly or very proactive, you'd have been stuck in litigation for eons... If you still wanted to recover, you can explore alternate means, like suing her but then taking the case to mediation or lok adalat (but then again, you never know what your lawyer might try to pull in order to pad up billing time)
With respect to the Women's Commission order, I think your lawyer should've accompanied you and you should've been allowed to have/guided into submitting a written response to the complaint rather than forced to make a physical appearance
I'm really sorry you had that experience, but that's literally the commission's job, if you make a complaint to them, they've got to show they took action, see? How else do you retain your seat and funding 🙄🙄
In any case, I'm glad you got out of it well, and honestly as the woman in this case - so stupid of her, she must've incurred the legal fees too and what was the point of it if she was going to admit she made a false complaint? 🙄🙄 Some people, honestly!
Thank you for this wholesome closure. I appreciate you recognise the difference in values and attribute it to the stage you are in your life.
"It's a bit messed up that laws designed to protect women at work end up making things worse for them."
I read up on maternity leaves around the world. Turns out India has the highest number of compulsory paid maternity leaves and ironically 0 paternity leaves. This makes it worse for women as employers will discriminate. Equality is a long way to go.
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
The employee did work full time for 6 months, taking 2 days off average per week and got paid for 14 months (6m paid+6months ML+2m severance). For a total of 69L cost. There was a further 2L in legal fees to handle the case she put on us after she quit. I don't know how a smaller business could survive this.
Women will always be 50% of the voters, as such laws are made to represent their interests. The problem is that when it goes too far, it encourages employers to discriminate in the interest of self preservation.
Now in every background check of that lady this case will come up and it's a huge red flag for her with future employers.
Let others take a lesson to swallow your pride when required.
Background checking end goal is not to figure out who was right in past but rather to figure out who started the drama. Once a drama starter always one.
@incognito Congratulations for a successful closure. My 2 cents: you should’ve asked the 4 women commissioners on how to approach such cases for the future. Getting that info from the commission would have been worth it’s weight in gold.
A simple question would’ve shut them up: how do you fire irresponsible under-performers who don’t inform you of maternity till last moment?
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
Their recommendation was to give more warning before a PIP.
But the reality is that I think they wouldve scolded me in any case.
They did not hold back on name calling, threats, and using derogatory language. I think they would make terrible managers themselves, nor did they have any experience, so would not take their advice.
They did not drive any outcome for the ex employee, in the end "mandated" that I pay FnF. Like I was not going to do it anyway.
Really great update. Want to Commend you for putting this with a variety of perspectives.
Cafeinatedpragmatist
Stealth
10 months ago
Hey, it's great to hear that the situation was resolved.
But just wanted to point one point out that was part of the replies to the original post which will also be a factor going forward for you and your company.
Inaction. I can't claim to know if consistent feedback would have led to a different outcome, but that's what good employers do. This time inaction put you in a particularly murky situation, but every time you decide to act against your judgement, you sow this. Sometimes it may come to nothing, sometimes it would lead to this. Your employees will respect you, if not necessarily like you, if you are open with providing and receiving feedback.
Again, no issues with your conduct at any time in this, just pointing out something that would be good for everybody.
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
Yes, looking back I realised the laws of the land made me act against my own sense of good management.
Once a person announces they are pregnant, it would be grounds for a discrimination case if I started questioning their current and previous job performance.
Realistically, the window to provide some kind of feedback was around 4 months, and I should've acted faster. CxO, VP, Director titles be damned.
Cafeinatedpragmatist
Stealth
10 months ago
That's fair. Experience makes us better.
Genuinely eye-opening. Lends a very unique perspective.
Great to know that you followed due process.
As I said last time that lady took you for a ride man. But you handled it great. You did nothing wrong and went professionally about it.
I mean bro it's 55 LPA, if she is not respecting that money n taking the company for a ride, that 55 LPA should be given to sm1 who truly puts the effort.
There are hundreds of pregnant teachers, who still go to college as they have a sense of duty. For measly 20k per month. These are the actual women who deserve maternity leave, not some kaam chor.
You did good bro, this should be lesson to all entitled people here that work is work.
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
Not to judge but the lady & husband employed several staff in her large house on the outskirts of town, including full time nannies, cooks and a driver.
If she is not able to manage in a wfh tech job with flex hours god knows how other new mothers manage.
ProteinPancakes
Stealth
10 months ago
You made the right choice. Performance > anything else
ProteinPancakes
Stealth
10 months ago
Humanity shouldn’t matter when it comes to work. That’s weak.
Adding in there are mandated leave sof more than a year in Germany France and other European countries...
I am sure OP would be the first in line to be a citizen of these countries and enjoy all the benefits and explain how good work life balance is there . .
And would definitely send his kids to study there ... But here will take advantage and express he does not know why there is a maternity/paternity leave
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
If you knew who I was in real life, I think you would not make all these assumptions about me. You are very off target, check your bias!
Umadbro
Stealth
10 months ago
This was handled very well. Good thing is you are not in legal trouble, and you can move past it focusing on your work.
The tradeoff in such cases would always be bad rep/pr v actual legal trouble v giving away money. People won’t admit it, but society is very responsive towards suffering of women in general and pregnant women in particular. (Not to say women don’t suffer, but they are more likely to get a sympathetic ear and help when they do). So you will be bashed for doing it, while it’s legally the best way.
You are the definition of an asshole looking for validity in anonymous forums... The worst part is this guy does not know why maternity leave is provided...
Thank God for laws in this country unlike usa where there is no mandated maternity leaves... Idiots like these would take advantage of lax rules...
Being a man .. I can say that not only they should have scolded you ... They should have folded your company
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
Thanks, makes me wonder what I'm missing.
Why do you think maternity leave exists if not to give women time to give birth and care for an infant?
Why should our company be folded? We have many mothers and fathers on our teams who would be out of a job for no fault of their own. Your suggestion seems far more cruel and inconsiderate that anything that transpired.
My takeaway is that some people think a new mother should not be evaluated in terms of work performance (regardless of how bad) for at least a year or so. Thats fair, but unfortunately not realistic unless a company is profitable enough to accommodate.
BadMaiden42
Student
10 months ago
Seethe harder bro
MightyLazyGeekStar
Stealth
10 months ago
I hope you would mention all details whenever you get a background check regarding this employee.
incognito
Stealth
10 months ago
If you check the original thread, the majority of folks seemed to think I was dead wrong. One person said I should get cancer!
TheOatmeal
Stealth
10 months ago
Hey @incognito , great that you updated the audience about the situation :)
Interesting. Thanks for the update. And don’t feel guilty, you had undertaken absolutely the right steps.
Grub96
Student
10 months ago
As a normie i think you handled it well. You're also one of the few people who actually updated about the situation. Thanks G.
