It's 100% true. I felt as an Engineer you do a lot of work minus the recognition. So PM would be better. But after becoming a PM, now I understand that Engineering was better.

Any advice for someone like me who is going for PM roles , although I have in-depth discussions with lots of product managers but you were a sde earlier and now a PM , what change did you observe and why earlier one was better and how can I grow (both financially and professionally) and do well in this role

Maybe I should write a detailed blog on these questions. I get asked these a lot 😅

Product Manager

So with advancement in technology since decade and then the COVID wave , many startups were having money flowing into them from VCs and there was a boost in Indian startup ecosystem, many startups ...

Welcome to Product Managers's Private Community

So with advancement in technology since decade and then the COVID wave , many startups were having money flowing into them from VCs and there was a boost in Indian startup ecosystem, many startups achieved the status of unicorn too , i am not saying product managers were not existing before , ofcourse they were there buliding some amazing products for the users out there, but do you think that the extra cash that was coming into the system created so many product management roles as a generalist and gave rise to popularity of product management and now we can see every second person wants to be a PM

Did this give rise to so many PM roles?

Did this give rise to so many PM roles?- Grapevine

1. High pressure on timelines- business and top management shits on you if you don’t deliver on time
2. No power to control the outcome- engineers don’t listen to you neither does the design or analytics team, you end up begging for resources
3. Too much politics- business or a senior PM can steal your bandwidth anytime
4. Lack of recognition- if it succeeds business did it, if it fails it is product teams fault (engg never gets blamed for shit)

I believe Product Management is a really toxic role

Almost every other post about PM function is as eye opening as this. What do you guys think?

PM future seems bleak?

I know Grapevine is full of young and ambitious people that either planning to get into Product or are already working as a PM. I don’t aim to discourage any of you. Moreover, if you need tips to break into Product I would be happy to help you.

I personally feel that knowing what you are doing is going to doom is better than normalizing it.

So I will convey my experience in simple words, how I hated every single day of it, why did I still stick around for 4 years, why product decisions are random political bullshit, why you should not let anything that happens get under your skin and affect your morale. Finally, few words for sociopathic Head of Products.

Lesson #1: Go through all stages of grief at once. Accept that product culture is broken and accept that it will not get better. Finally, you can’t fix it or improve it.

Lesson #2: Ratings are political bullshit. 
I can tell you the years I was rated worse I was probably working harder and better at my job. It just depends on the results you get in the last month before ratings and whether your DOP is vocal for you.

Lesson #3: Last piece of advice: do not let your Product years lower your self esteem or sense of self worth.

Also, some words for sociopathic Head of Products. F’ you.

You Must Get Out - My Experience of 4 Years In Product

Heavily second this. I’m a tech focus generalist who stumbled upon PMing after multiple startup exits. Absolutely bonkers role with no role definition, metric ownership, impact driving. Anyone who disagrees, is lying to themselves. What I can define PM in Indian / many valley based companies with Indian founders -> glorified bhains charane wala.

Everyone and their mother became a product manager in the last few years. How safe are these jobs in a recession. I often hear (from engineers who don’t hide their disdain for PMs so maybe a biased opinion) that they are the first one to let go. Is that true?

Job security in product management

Welcome to Indian Startups's Private Community

I'm a product manager myself and I've been noticing this mentality.

Founders of pre-PMF stage companies, having raised tons of money in the bull market in a last couple of years, have hired tons of resources with no clarity and vision whatsoever.

They continue to ignore they're building a product nobody wants. They barely talk to users. On top of it, they hire Product Managers thinking it's a silver bullet and will solve PMF issues.

It's founders responsibility to figure out PMF and not anybody's else. You need to get in the weeds and not throw money at problems.

It just doesn't end there. These companies with average talent pool and the kind of culture that sets it top-down because of these average founders, expect PMs to own everything and fix everything. Everybody from Tech to Marketing shrugs off from the responsibility expect PMs to tell what needs to be done. This chutiya mindset of 'sit and wait' until a PM tells let breeds more inefficiency as output becomes slower as nobody is incentivised to think and take decisions. Also, everybody enjoys doing what are being told because no consequences if things blow up.

Hire competent people across functions and get involved in product building. It's already too late to fix it if this resonates with you.

PM roles have made startups with average talent pool more inefficient

Unfortunately this is the reality in most companies in the world. It's not just pre-PMF startups.  
  
 That's just how things are in corporate. 
  
 I was lucky to be working in a pre-PMF startup where engineers took more responsibility. And they themselves planned out the tech debt and optimised APIs/queries, etc.  
  
 And I know I'm not gonna find such set of engineers ever again.  
  
 Best thing to do is to make peace with it and do whatever you can to make the best product 😀

How does the market demand for product managers in the short term? Do you guys see any reduced demand for the role? Difficult to find any openings or difficulty in clearing the interviews?

How true is this?

its advertised as minj CEO role but what is the reality?

Why is Product Manager becoming dream career for many?

Software Engineer

Is there a lack of good opportunities, like it was 5-10 years ago in companies like Gojek, Swiggy, etc to grow fast into a Director of product role?

Are the fast-tracked PM career paths over?

Consultant, Investment Banking went from sought after careers to fads post 2008 crisis when the world realized that these folks are crooks due to their role in propogating the Great Financial Crisis.

Given the backlash tech companies has been getting and global layoffs, will Product Manager also become a passing fad?

Seeing lot of anti Product Manager sentiment on this app off late. Was Product Management also a fad?

Someone here said engineers can become PM but PM can't become engineers. It can't be more correct than this. But reality is, it sounds goods only in theory.  
  
  I asked this same question to my director, why have you hired us when engineers clearly know more about products than us and are capable?  His answered that before the organisation formally created a team of product managers, it was only engineers that were handling product for decades. But that resulted into substandard products being developed, chaotic product release and consistent drop in revenue. The reason being engineers became backlog managers and engineers beging engineers, never focused on business value. Instead, they focused on technical aspect heavily. Engineers never bothered to check if what they were developing will actually sell in the market or not.  
  
 And mind you, this was a product that all of us use in daily lives. The numbers of users in India alone would be millions. So to summarise, yes, engineers can become PMs but generally they stay loyal to their pedigree of BE/B.Tech and become very shitty PMs. They like to have more technical conversations than strategic discussions and hate things that are not quantifiable, subjective. And business facing people here in forum would know, things are always not quantifiable in business planning, market outlook. It is based on assumptions.  
  
 An excellent PM would be someone who is an engineer but knows how to focus on business value of the product, make it customer oriented etc. I had the pleasure of working of one such PM in my last stint and he was truly outstanding. CEO knew him personally and this is in an organization with thousands of employees

Program Manager

Lately I am observing trend that product roles are going down, not many company believe in hiring product roles. At least small/mid startup wants CTPO roles and they want someone to play dual roles, primarily tech led products roles. Pure product roles is becoming lesser. Even few bigger MNCs have fewer products roles to offer. Is it just me? Or grapevine thinks same as well?

Product roles are going down

Lawyer

For most part of last decade, product managers commanded a healthy premium in compensation over their business counterparts. This is largely how tech companies globally have operated, and what we have mirrored. But as the Indian tech ecosystem has matured over the last few years, a couple of the underlying assumptions have changed:

One, ten years back, there was an explosion of startups and they were all in the market for "experienced product managers", and in a still nascent tech industry, such talent was in scarcity - thus triggering a premium positioning. Now, arguably, the equation has reversed: there are far more people entering the trade / in the profession with <5 years experience, than there are open roles in the market. And more critically, the growth rate of "product positions" has stagnated: particularly since product is a high-leverage function and does not scale linearly with company growth (but instead only with growth in # of companies).

Two, most Indian startups / tech companies are not product-led unlike Silicon Valley ventures. Instead, a vast majority are operating businesses. These companies tend to have dedicated business teams who take up primary ownership of the business goals and thus, call the shots. In such setups, product managers play second fiddle as a bridge function to tech. Worse, product managers who scaled in such environments, they end up playing that part too: too focused on tech / design execution with not as much depth on the business understanding. In post-covid boom, we got the tailwind of being an engineering-adjacency in a techno-optimistic market. Now the same tides have turned and as a "generalist tech function", we are under scrutiny for wage-bill pressure.

Do you foresee a correction in PM salaries? How soon (1y / 3y / 5y), and to what extent (10% / 20% / 30%) will the market correct itself?

Is PM salary due for a correction?

Investor

Would you rather be an Engineer learning how to Product or a Product Manager learning how to Engineer?

Answer is obvious mate. And it's already in motion. 
 Everyone knows current product management breed is a messed up fraudulent bunch. They will run into poverty if they don't change ways🙂

Founding Engineer

Hi! Can you please suggest websites or apps to get mentorship or exposure. I'll go first - ADPList.

Websites/apps to get mentorship or exposure

Business Analyst

Need a feedback. Are PM roles drastically reducing?

https://the-ken.com/story/why-more-40-somethings-are-becoming-unwilling-retirees/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter

PMs, views on this? How are PMs above 40 faring in the industry ?

I am gonna graduate in June 2024 and want to get into product management, I have two internships in same domain but there is a gap after Jan 2023  because I started preparing for some exams in whole 2023 as market was very bad then , although it's bad now as well but not much as compared to last year, how should I approach towards it when getting back and what soft skills i can develop in these 3 to 4 months so as to land at good product management internship with a potential for full time conversion

How to get into product

So I've met many PMs in my career. Most have been sub par, poor performers, can't even do IC work. The ones who can do IC work, can't think. The IC work is generally project management not product. They need someone to tell them directions

So here's a few things. The best PMs I've met, are good engineers. Yes. These are the same folks who come for product management conferences and are respected. 
Of course not all engineers are good at product.
The role of product came up with manufacturing first when you had product designers who worked with engineers and had a good understanding of both engineering limitations and user understanding. 

Some of the PMs I have met don't even talk to users. The reason i am seeing an issue in PMs in India is the increase in demand in the role, and a lack of supply.

There is a product engineer role, I met a few folks who are doing that, they were amazing. Knew technology, users, product and super passionate.

I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule, I'm sure there are folks who have a natural inclination, so if you're an exception, understand that. Don't get offended by the statement

Did this give rise to so many PM roles?

Discover More

Product Managers on

by Kalan Denver

DealShare

I believe Product Management is a really toxic role

Product Managers on

by Kendall Carmden

Juspay

PM future seems bleak?

Product Managers on

by Kendall Hyrum

Gojek

You Must Get Out - My Experience of 4 Years In Product

Product Managers on

by Blair Lee

InMobi

Job security in product management

Indian Startups on

by Kendall Lee

Stealth

PM roles have made startups with average talent pool more inefficient

Product Managers on

by Aaron Denver

Ingram Micro

How true is this?

Indian Startups on

by Kendall Lee

CricPe

Why is Product Manager becoming dream career for many?

Product Managers on

by Kendall Denver

Student

Are the fast-tracked PM career paths over?

Indian Startups on

by Karilyn Nadeen

Stealth

Seeing lot of anti Product Manager sentiment on this app off late. Was Product Management also a fad?

Designers on

by Matilda Nadeen

Stealth

Product roles are going down

Product Managers on

by Kendall Lee

Swiggy

Is PM salary due for a correction?

Product Managers on

by Matilda Dean

Gojek

Would you rather be an Engineer learning how to Product or a Product Manager learning how to Engineer?

Product Managers on

by Anise Lee

Colortokens

Websites/apps to get mentorship or exposure

Product Managers on

by Kalan Lee

Stealth

Need a feedback. Are PM roles drastically reducing?

Product Managers on

by Dezi Hyrum

Juspay

PMs, views on this? How are PMs above 40 faring in the industry ?

Misc on

by Blair Carmden

Student

How to get into product

Product Managers on

by Dezi Denver

Stealth

What PMs lack in India