PMs are completely useless. Change my mind

Now they are being dheads. Causing unnecessary pain. Total dheads

Founding Engineer

Add a designer, I'll take working with PMs over developers any day. Convincing Devs why a design solution is good is a full time job.  
 Most developers only see constraints and keep saying how difficult a design is to implement.  
  
 I'm not dissing on the Devs at all, they're very hardworking no doubt. But that mindset shift does not happen with most Devs where they see a product vision, it's also not expected of them anyways. So good PMs are assets to teams.

Product Designer

Software Engineer

Typically a problem in companies where engineers can't talk to each other

Product Manager

What the devil is PMs business in search solutioning man? They talk to engineers from another team to understand the solution and then explain that solution to another set of engineer/ds team and b...

Welcome to Product Managers's Private Community

What the devil is PMs business in search solutioning man? They talk to engineers from another team to understand the solution and then explain that solution to another set of engineer/ds team and brainstorm on what the solution should be. The disconnect is massive in this communication gap.
Why d fck should PMs discuss a search solution? Their job was done if they connected 2 engineer /DS team.

Don't get me wrong, they are putting in hard work to build something, but the disconnect is massive. 2 engineers or Data Scientists can identify the problem in a jhalak. God these PMs sitting in between communication makes things go in useless circles and is a massive unnecessary kachara. All because you are trying to earn ur food in a place u barely belong. Fckin mess

PMs in search

PMs in search- Grapevine

Welcome to Software Engineers's Private Community

1. They are the most overpaid people in India.
2. They have no work life balance and they don't even know what it means.
3. They think they are the best at everything, but they can't do anything right.
4. They are always complaining about their job and how much they hate it.
5. They are never satisfied with their salary or benefits package.
6. They are always looking for new jobs because they think they deserve better than what they currently have.

Would you like to add anything else here?

Software Engineers as seen by a Product Manager...

PM as seen by Engineers: 
 1. Doesn't do anything other than throwing random jargons 
 2. Can't explain what they do other than say how they are not Program manager or something else

What are the unique problems that you faced working as a PM in a startup at various stages vs the ones in corporate?

Problems faced by a PM in a startup

Would you rather be an Engineer learning how to Product or a Product Manager learning how to Engineer?

Answer is obvious mate. And it's already in motion. 
 Everyone knows current product management breed is a messed up fraudulent bunch. They will run into poverty if they don't change ways🙂

Do anyone else think PMs aren't very good at the things they are supposed to do.
It is evident from failing products across industry.
Any views??

Are PMs even revelant?

Lately I am seeing a lot more people talk about the fact that being a PM is a sub optimal strategy for an eventful career in Tech. However, let me remind you that people in tech tend to be predominantly engineers and they like the people skills needed to be good at making Products for actual humans.

I have personally witnessed PMs be great at talking to various teams in Engg, Design, Analystics and Operations. They are so good at talking that they forget that they actually need to work and not just speak all the time. I feel that PMs are all talk but now work and just chill around the foosball table all day. Once in a while they will go and flirt with that new chick that joined their team. In case the joke wasn't clear, "PMs are the cesspool of Tech". 😂

We need PMs more than you think...

Product Owner

Engineers saying pms shouldn't exist should for once get what they want. Most engineers I know get anxious enough to take leaves once a customer shouts at them lol

Pms shouldn't exist folks should get what they want

Computer Operator

It’s clear that companies won’t need engineers 10 years from now. 

They’ll just need people who know what to make. Who to sell to. How to sell to. At what price. 

This will be the great commoditization of Software development

Take it or leave it.

[Hot Take] AI will make SWEs redundant, PMs and Marketers will become the most important job

This is an L take for someone who works at Google
It is supremely obvious that SWEs are about to enter the golden era of Software Engineering. We are easily foreseeing 2x-2.5x improvement in developer productivity rate. You should go touch some grass or else you will end up becoming PM guru who shills substandard-courses to poor kids.

Product Marketing Manager

Welcome to Indian Startups's Private Community

Consultant, Investment Banking went from sought after careers to fads post 2008 crisis when the world realized that these folks are crooks due to their role in propogating the Great Financial Crisis.

Given the backlash tech companies has been getting and global layoffs, will Product Manager also become a passing fad?

Seeing lot of anti Product Manager sentiment on this app off late. Was Product Management also a fad?

Someone here said engineers can become PM but PM can't become engineers. It can't be more correct than this. But reality is, it sounds goods only in theory.  
  
  I asked this same question to my director, why have you hired us when engineers clearly know more about products than us and are capable?  His answered that before the organisation formally created a team of product managers, it was only engineers that were handling product for decades. But that resulted into substandard products being developed, chaotic product release and consistent drop in revenue. The reason being engineers became backlog managers and engineers beging engineers, never focused on business value. Instead, they focused on technical aspect heavily. Engineers never bothered to check if what they were developing will actually sell in the market or not.  
  
 And mind you, this was a product that all of us use in daily lives. The numbers of users in India alone would be millions. So to summarise, yes, engineers can become PMs but generally they stay loyal to their pedigree of BE/B.Tech and become very shitty PMs. They like to have more technical conversations than strategic discussions and hate things that are not quantifiable, subjective. And business facing people here in forum would know, things are always not quantifiable in business planning, market outlook. It is based on assumptions.  
  
 An excellent PM would be someone who is an engineer but knows how to focus on business value of the product, make it customer oriented etc. I had the pleasure of working of one such PM in my last stint and he was truly outstanding. CEO knew him personally and this is in an organization with thousands of employees

Program Manager

Found this on Twitter, Source: https://twitter.com/aakashg0/status/1778414659000840399/photo/1

What do you think? 

PS: I kinda like his tweets sometimes.

Director of Product: I was pushed out after building a startup to what it was over 7 years. Equity went from $10M+ to <$1M.

Whenever you a call PM fraud here, they come & put justifications like you don't know business, products built by Engineers are shyt, only PMs can build good products, engineers don't prioritize business needs bla bla.

A data scientist/analytics perspective:
1. When we call a PM fraud, we refer to mainly those who come without a background in either of tech or business. Cool wannabes straight out of college & learnt nothing but attitude over years.
If a PM was an engineer, or analytics, or business or ops, then others first see him/her as engineer/etc & then a manager. That's the right way it should be. 

2. 'Business won't be prioritized' is such a complacency:
Business is bread & butter of Analytics and AI. It is the primary thing we check in interviews, a large portion of the interview focus' on the problem statement and prioritisations.

End note: PMs are hot, but only when they have a solid foundation in stuff they are building. They need to know depths. Anyone apart from this breed are worthless & Indian startups are filled with this shyt
A best PM would be a senior engineer/analyst with penchant for business practicality & customer perspective.

Why of 1st Point? Because how can you manage a team when you don't even know what that team does? For eg: I can tell my PM any random blabbing about why model is working/not & she has no idea to judge my words. Leave AI, with tech pipelines too I can give any deadlines & justify it how would she know? Besides if they don't have tech background they bring in random expectations which is far away from feasibility. Why should any tech guy respect them? They can understand business req, connect with business teams and build better. That's the exact role of a project manager.

Product Manager Worth & their insecure justifications

Sometimes PMs want to change the flow of way things working. They often say it's a small change and will not take much time. They see things on high level, but they don't see what are the logics behind need to change and what are DB migration required and sometimes it is not possible to change because many things dependent on it.

Developer issues with PMs

Met a PM from IIT / IIM with 4 years of experience. He is working at a  well know soonicorn at a salary of 17  lakhs per year . He used to draw 30 lakhs per year in his last role before we was laid off . Interesting Times ahead

PM Salaries Have Crashed.

A minute of silence to all the grapevine polls where salary expectations are so high 😁

Growth Manager

Do you think pure product managers with no technical background add value to your company? Aren't experienced project managers with penchant for business more suitable for this role?

Do you think product managers with barely 2 years of experience required in your company?

Analyst

Hey GV folks, long-time lurker, first-time poster here. I'm a product leader at Zomato, managing a team of 8 PMs. Today, I want to share a practice that's become the cornerstone of our product philosophy - and it all started with me being "punished" by my first manager.

At the cost of self praising, this is some really good advice so I hope you’re able to extract the maximum value out of this.

Five years ago, I was a cocky new PM, fresh out of a fancy consulting gig. I thought I knew everything about our users based on data and surveys.

My wake-up call came when I royally screwed up a feature release. Instead of firing me, my manager did something unconventional - she made me spend a week as a delivery partner.

I was pissed. Riding around Bangalore in the March heat, navigating traffic, dealing with hangry customers - how was this supposed to make me a better PM? But on day three, while waiting for an order outside Truffles (fellow Bangaloreans, you know the wait I'm talking about), I struck up a conversation with a few seasoned delivery partners.

What I learned in those 30 minutes blew my mind. They shared hacks they'd developed, pain points I'd never considered, and insights about customer behavior that no amount of data could have revealed. I realized I'd been building features in a vacuum, completely disconnected from the real world our app operated in.

That week changed everything. I rewrote our entire product roadmap based on what I learned. The results? Our delivery partner satisfaction scores shot up, and our order completion rates improved significantly.

Since then, I've made it a point to spend one day every month doing deliveries. It keeps me grounded, provides constant insights, and reminds me who we're really building for.

When I started managing other PMs, I knew I had to institutionalize this practice. Now, it's mandatory for everyone on my team to do a delivery day once a month. No exceptions.

At first, there was resistance. "We have data for this," they'd argue. "I can't waste a whole day delivering food!" But after their first experience, they got it. Now, our team meetings are buzzing with insights from the field.

Here's why I believe every product manager should regularly step into their users' shoes:

1. Data doesn't tell the whole story: Numbers can show you what's happening, but not why. Real interactions reveal the context behind the data.
2. Empathy drives innovation: When you experience user pain points firsthand, you're more motivated to solve them creatively.
3. It challenges assumptions: Nothing humbles you faster than realizing your "brilliant" feature is actually a pain to use in the real world.
4. It builds credibility: When you can say "I've done this myself," your team and stakeholders listen differently.
5. It's a reminder of impact: In the daily grind of KPIs and metrics, it's easy to forget that we're affecting real people's lives. This practice keeps that front and center.

Some practical tips if you want to try this:
- Don't just observe. Actually do the job.
- Engage in conversations. Users (and front-line workers) are usually eager to share their experiences if you show genuine interest.
- Look for workarounds and hacks. These are gold mines for product insights.
- Pay attention to the environment and context in which your product is used.
- Reflect on the experience immediately after. What surprised you? What frustrated you?

To my fellow PMs out there: when was the last time you truly stepped into your users' shoes? If it's been a while, I challenge you to give it a try. You might just find your next big product breakthrough while waiting to pick up someone’s 1 am order from Empire :)

P.S. Took a photo while waiting for my order, would probably have been fired long back had it not been for this evening!

Why I make my PM team deliver food orders - no exceptions

Why does your post sounds like some made up bullshit Gyaan I see on LinkedIn everyday.

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