This I want to say ๐๐ผ
DaringTrain
Stealth
a month ago
Just like IQ, sexual indiscretions against women are also a spectrum. It starts with staring / leering / online and offline trolling / stalking / death and rape threats / actual illegal actions... The point of raising the voice is not just to advocate for castration / death penalty. Those who are psychotic and psychopathic are not deterred by these things also. Because for this you need to catch them - > Prove it - > Punish them in ways that is both retributive and deterrent.
Majority of such cases (in the nascent stages) are not reported because women are scared, think it will pass, embarrassed, ill-advised and so on.
So, what do these poems, cartoons, graphics and quotes to shame men achieve?
They bring solidarity amongst women. Those who are scared, mentally frsutrated because they imagine such things happening to them, their mothers, sisters, children - A platform to voice their fears, to share their trauma, to heal a little.
Such incidents break the social fabric. Women find extremely difficult to trust the state, the police, men in their lives - all authority figures who are their designated protectors. Protectors against whom - Such animals.
And then, a week on, a month on, a year on, they will have to go back to their lives as if nitjjng happened - till the next incident.
If your own fragile male ego can't handle women healing themselves, then you don't deserve to have them in your life.
THIS I WANT TO SAY
AngryFauji
Stealth
a month ago
I want to start where we do agree. Yes sexual indiscretion are a spectrum that start with staring, leering to the illegal actions. Yes there is no point in raising voice for change in law cause the law punishes not prevents the crime. Yes the current culture heavily objectifies women.
But if you think that bashing men would solve these problems you're wrong. All it will do is contribute to the already existing and toxic gender war. The people who would benefit from this are the influencers who want engagement to boost their own following. And alienate the men who do want to do something about it.
I saw the same script playing when Nirbhaya happened, and then in MeToo. Why do women think that we as men do not care about woman at all? We have women we care about deeply, and we recognize what the current dispensation is doing to them. We too want things to change. But all that swept under the rug because of some misandrists who would rather use this horrific event to express their hatered of men. How are they different then the misogynists who question the character of women when sexual indiscretions are aimed at them? And when questioned everything boils down to men's fragile ego.
Mind you I am not accusing you of misandry, I acknowledge your feelings of helplessness and empathize with them. Something tragic just happened and it will take some time for these feelings to be sorted out. But to dismiss all criticism in a catch all phrase like "fragile male ego" isn't constructive at all.
Take MeToo for example, it was a movement that had the potential to end workplace harassment once and for all, but it vanished just like that. Was it the misogyny that killed it? It was the misandry that killed it, the insistence that women be belived regardless of the evidence since all men sexually harrass. Amber Heard was just the final nail in the coffin.
Rather than seeking solidarity amongst women, why not let us also show solidarity with them. Why bash us as the problem? This dichtomy of men vs women is what kills actual reform rather than apathy.
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Yes in social media everyone is posting the girl image and her name. Stop doing this please.
GvineC
Stealth
a month ago
Totally agree with this. This country has been having far too many people than required anyway, and weeding out a few bad ones would definitely do more good than harm. We need severe measures against rape and any kind of molestation in general
DaringTrain
Stealth
a month ago
First up, I am a man. I am not a misandrist (there's no reason for me to hate all my gender). Even though you explicitly mentioned you aren't accusing me, your comment was alluding to it. Had I been a woman, I would have had to defend against it, but it's moot now.
Also being a man, I can comment on fragile male ego. Men who want to do something about it don't stop and stand down (and start fighting tooth and nail to defend my gender) just because one small section of discourse diverts towards hating all men. A large proportion of the discourse is about the issue at hand and that's what most Influencers are also influencing(?) about.
And it's a far cry that MeToo died down because of misandrists. MeToo achieved some good progress and more importantly uncovered what women in white and bluecollar jobs face in their place of work, which men "who deeply care about women" didn't even know was happening. So let's not fuck around and demean what's been achieved. Also, let's not kid ourselves that misandrists killed what could have eventually been achieved. Yes, it did lead to some discourse shifting in that direction and some women manipulating narrative to falsely accuse men. But what eventually led to its downfall is that men became scared that our "innocuous" actions can be deemed inappropriate and we might (for the first time in our lives) face backlash or even consequences of our actions (workplace / legal). So, we gravitated towards the polar opposite narrative which was also gaining popularity with MRA, #NotAllMen, all that crap. Even on GV, we publically humor and spread fears about POSH as if it's the burden all "good" men have to bear.
Now coming to the meat of what you said, let's deconstruct it one by one.
- Bashing men won't solve the problem: No one's bashing men for being men or being born with a dick. People are bashing men for the actions they are doing. It's not acceptable, and can't continue.
-Toxic gender war: It's actually funny. If it's a gender war, why are men like me on the other side. Why am I not in fear of being man. Also, a war is where both sides suffer losses. Here, women suffer physical harm, emotional trauma, dick pics, death and rape threats online and offline. I wonder how many has the other side received?
- Men deeply care about women, want to do something, but can't do because we don't support misandry: Most of it I covered above. Will just reiterate, men who don't have fragile egos (and no skeletons in our closets), can see beyond this fluff and not fixate ourselves to a very small set of discourse.
AngryFauji
Stealth
a month ago
Replied on the main thread. Some bug with the app @DaringTrain
Qwerty2398
Stealth
a month ago
The first impact of this wholesale generalization that all men are bad or all women are targeted would be unrealistic stringent anti men law ironically sold as pro women law.
Decent men in this world will now keep away from all unknown women lest they complain about him.
As a manager am really sacred having any women in my team. Tomorrow if the woman in a moment of anger does fake complaint against me, am screwed for life. Better off keeping them away.
AngryFauji
Stealth
a month ago
> alluding to misandry
No I haven't been alluding to an accusation of misandry, but criticising the fact that many of these poems, cartoons, graphics do have veiled misandry as a motivation. I clarified that I am not accusing you of misandry for defending these but criticising not recognizing the motivation behind a lot of them. Just to be clear your argument was that such posts generalizing and bashing men is ok because they are expression of solidarity among women. Regardless of your gender you have to defend that argument, and not a preceived accusation of misandry.
> fragile ego. men who want to do something don't stop and stand down just because one small section hates men.
My argument wasn't about action but a categorization of all criticism of the current direction the discourse was going towards into just "fragile male ego". That is a lazy argument and and ad hominem. If you hadn't paid attention the whole discourse has now devolved into an extended gender wars being fought by two small section but very loud and vocal individuals who hate the other gender. The problem is that hijacking the discourse is polarizing the larger narrative as happened during nirbhaya and during MeToo, and the result will be the same, it will eventually die down with nothing happening again.
> MeToo
Nope, the movement and their leader instantly lost all credibility after Amber Heard's conviction. Though some good things did happen during the movement, it did reverse after the fall. That's tragic. Yes the discourse immediately went to the opposite narrative, which too is wrong. But that opportunity was given becausr the insistence that all accusations are right. Had the reform been to institute a good process for verification this swing wouldn't have happened in the first place, instead we would have a system that worked.
> no one is bashing men for being born with a dick but for actions they are doing.
You do realize that just after saying that you aren't generalizing men you immediately generalize men in the next line. That's a poor argument.
> toxic gender wars
That's your thing bro. I don't care what side you are on. My issue is you taking a side in the gender war, whether pro-men or pro-women. Gender war isnt abiut suffering but being in conflict with the other gender. I realize what women go through, and I abhor it. I do agree a lot of mrn do not suffer the same issue. But I am against those thing not because I picked a side in the gender war, but because i think those things are wrong.
> men who don't have fragile ego can see beyond this fluff and not fixate to small set of discourse.
1 it is not fluff anymore but has taken a center stage
2 whether you like it or not it will alienate men, good and bad alike, even the ones without fragile egos. Because it is a generalization, being blamed for something they are rather than what they do. And that's problematic
LooseGoose
Stealth
a month ago
Bro Ayushman Khurana ki poetry sunke ulti aa gayi. I like the guy and his movies but aise incident par content banana is a new low for many influencers and creators.
DaringTrain
Stealth
a month ago
This is not a fucking college debate. This is not an academic exercise. Understand the stakes here.
I am not here taking the burden from the side of the government, speaking for my 6+1 mins, that all men bashing is okay.
Understand what's happening to the women when such a news breaks. You have women crying for hours just reading the details of horror that happened with Moumita. People broke down in their workplace. Some aren't even able to read it as it's triggering their own SA traumas.
That's what I meant when I said that the social fabric breaks when such incidents happen.
People who are shaming men are shaming them for the actions that they are doing. There is no cricism for all men doing all actions. This is for those who are doing those indiscretions.
Please see the statistics. 99.1% of all sexual misconducts go unreported. Of those reported, convictions for crimes is at lower end of spectrum (vs say murder or robbery) and pendency is high. Of the total incidents of misconduct, what % turn out to be false. How many men are getting duped (by misuse) vs women getting raped? What do you think this ratio is?
Should there be even one innocent man affected? No | Can it be practically ensured? No
Is this good enough for there to be two factions to this argument? No
What some of us are spending disproportionate amount of time arguing, we can actually spend learning what the issue at hand is, who's being affected, and how.
I am not generalising and painting everyone with the same brush. You are.
There's no pro-men vs pro-women. Don't fucking, for a second, think you are fighting a holy war for "men-kind". As you said, those are two very loud factions, but they are very small.
The poems, the posts, my arguments are not alienating men. They are alienating insecure men. And I am not giving you the right to fight your insecurity and put it under the garb of fighting as a pro-men faction. It's pathetic what shape the discourse is taking.
AngryFauji
Stealth
a month ago
I am fully cognizant of the stakes and I do agree with you what is happening. I fully agree what effect the SA on the poor girl had on women.
The only thing we disagree on is whether such graphics, posts etc are the right way or not. Your argument is that it is a small minority that is doing so and it doesnt alienate secure men just insecure men.
My argument is the gender wars has taken the center stage and it is alienating a lot of men. I do not think it is positive and it will deepen the divide between genders. I cannot in good conscience agree with you that this is okay, because I saw the same thing happening in nirbhaya and MeToo. Everything will fizzle down with nothing happening with just a lot of negative feelings between men and women.
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