I think some of them do play an important role. Most of the pms are not critical. And tend to hide behind the walls of program management. 

I knew a product manager, who actually understood engineering, sat with engineering managers, and figured out how the tech architecture should be and also understood business problems well. 

Because of the influx of every random dude wanting to become a product manager, quality has declined sharply in the past few years.

Or dudette. Beware of cancel culture bruv!

Product Manager

Software Developer

Let's face it. In some company (read mine) they are the gatekeepers of all things roadmap, obviousness, communication between engineers and business. While in some companies they are nothing but a ...

Welcome to Software Engineers's Private Community

Let's face it. In some company (read mine) they are the gatekeepers of all things roadmap, obviousness, communication between engineers and business. While in some companies they are nothing but a left over thought acting no more than a typical Program Manager (Google and how Engineers have more say and power in roadmaps).

What are your thoughts on your PM?

Ask Engineers: Thoughts on Product Managers?

Tech Lead

Ask Engineers: Thoughts on Product Managers?- Grapevine

Welcome to Indian Startups's Private Community

Question to all the software engineers. 

What are some traits of the best PMs you have worked with - could be a behavioural aspect / work ethic / knowledge of the domain etc.

Engineers' views on Product Managers

Coding is like solving 2+2 but coders take pride in the fact that you do it in English but I can do it in Sanskrit.Iykwim. I have coded for two years and as long as you're well versed in a language it's like making simple additions and subtractions in that language. Still coders make mistakes because they're lazy and incompetent like the rest of us . 80 percentage of coders just solve basics and still act like it's a big deal . Product Managers are not special I get it but coders are not special too just by knowing a language. It's like a bilingual person shitting on someone who knows just one language. When we all know if you're brought up in a certain way it's very easy to speak in two languages like we all do in India.

Why do people shit on product managers

Product managers are a divisive bunch. Ask us what we do, and most of us puff our chests and babble about Steve Jobs, PMF and god-knows-what. The rest slouch and mumble something about writing JIRAs.

Curious about how non-PM folks view us - both good and bad!

What do you think of Product Managers?

Welcome to Product Managers's Private Community

Would you rather be an Engineer learning how to Product or a Product Manager learning how to Engineer?

Answer is obvious mate. And it's already in motion. 
 Everyone knows current product management breed is a messed up fraudulent bunch. They will run into poverty if they don't change ways🙂

Founding Engineer

So I've met many PMs in my career. Most have been sub par, poor performers, can't even do IC work. The ones who can do IC work, can't think. The IC work is generally project management not product. They need someone to tell them directions

So here's a few things. The best PMs I've met, are good engineers. Yes. These are the same folks who come for product management conferences and are respected. 
Of course not all engineers are good at product.
The role of product came up with manufacturing first when you had product designers who worked with engineers and had a good understanding of both engineering limitations and user understanding. 

Some of the PMs I have met don't even talk to users. The reason i am seeing an issue in PMs in India is the increase in demand in the role, and a lack of supply.

There is a product engineer role, I met a few folks who are doing that, they were amazing. Knew technology, users, product and super passionate.

I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule, I'm sure there are folks who have a natural inclination, so if you're an exception, understand that. Don't get offended by the statement

What PMs lack in India

Founder’s Office

PM of 5 years. Same place the whole time. We have a new Engineering Manager. 

They started 2 months ago and at first they seemed like they were very happy to learn our process and products. Then they soon started to manipulate the Engineering team which was very cooperative earlier.

It’s incredibly demotivating. We are a small startup, and the culture isn’t great but seriously no need to be so dismissive of other people’s efforts and feelings. They are just fucking rude. No other word for it really. The problem is that they do NOT get the product side of things so you can’t explain anything to them. They start to physically roll their eyes when you go anymore product than the word “PRD”.

I have never had to deal with someone like this and it’s really stressing me out as they are involved in effectively every project I work on. Advice that isn’t “quit” will be appreciated.

I should also clarify that when I say “product limitations” I really mean how much effort goes into getting things right, the delays are shearing the roadmap apart.

why do Software Engineers act so rude? How to solve this in my team?

As a Product Manager, why do Software Engineers act so rude?

Software Engineer

1. They are the most overpaid people in India.
2. They have no work life balance and they don't even know what it means.
3. They think they are the best at everything, but they can't do anything right.
4. They are always complaining about their job and how much they hate it.
5. They are never satisfied with their salary or benefits package.
6. They are always looking for new jobs because they think they deserve better than what they currently have.

Would you like to add anything else here?

Software Engineers as seen by a Product Manager...

PM as seen by Engineers: 
 1. Doesn't do anything other than throwing random jargons 
 2. Can't explain what they do other than say how they are not Program manager or something else

No, I'm not talking about the job market. That's dog shit -- barely any vacancies, and engineers earn 25%ish more. 

However, in a world with 10x better Co-Pilots and other GenAI tools, problem identification is going to be every employee's moat. 'Tech-Enabled' Business PMs will have the brightest futures. There's already a rise in PM-led vs Eng-led startups. This will become clearer 5-10 years down the line.

Also, supply-demand is not as skewed as you think. Everyone thinks this job is easy, and hence, a bunch of folks are aspiring PMs on LinkedIn. I believe quality PMs are still rare (personally have a long way to go).

Would love to hear more. I'm young in my career and maybe naive but this is what I feel.

Unpopular Opinion: It's a great time to be a PM

Sharing some reflections on this:

1. Product is not a function with a large hierarchy / multiple levels in the ladder. Managerial responsibility comes in very late in the product career and the spans are typically small (relative to other functions like engineering, sales, operations). This also means a steeper funnel to the top and only a handful VP Product roles in the industry.

2. Product is centered around technology and digital consumer trends, both of which are fast changing. This requires constant unlearning and relearning. But more critically, this also means that previous knowledge/experience hits a plateau on marginal value beyond a basic threshold (where you have developed some essential product semse and skills).

3. Product managers are also much higher-paid vs other functional peers, at comparable years of experience. This means that a PM gets to a very high salary (say, 1+ crore) by the age of 40 (15-20y into their career). Tech functions in non-tech companies (like FMCG, banking) cannot offer that kind of pay, meaning salary growth beyond a point is limited to tech-first companies / limiting addressable market for lateral moves.

All of these considererd, how should PMs think about the longevity of their careers? Unlike traditional roles, this does not seem like a "retire at 60" job. What would be the realistic age one should plan for, at which career growth and salary growth will stagnate? What are ways in which a 80%ile PM can extend their career (eg: also taking up engineering management or P&L responsibility or growth function etc., to increase scope)?

PS: this post is not for the top 5-10% PMs. They will always find roles at VP level etc, this is for the 50-90%ile bucket of PM talent.

Longevity of a product career

Will commend you on a very well written and well articulated post. 
  
 Options for the future will be apparent at ~40.  Most peak roles will be achieved between 45-50. 
  
 Possible exits: 
  
 1. Running Category roles at companies which have a broad canvas, multiple product categories. 
 2. Deputing for and eventually running a P&L or a LoB. 
 3. Sales or more critically Customer Success.  Don't shy away from revenue responsibilities. 
  
 Engineering is a sharp left turn imo.  It's not an overlapping skillset at best and don't see how that is part of a PMs likely roadmap.

Sales Manager

Investor

Do you think pure product managers with no technical background add value to your company? Aren't experienced project managers with penchant for business more suitable for this role?

Do you think product managers with barely 2 years of experience required in your company?

Analyst

I am reading very often that the craze around product management is too much and this career is not worth the hype. Adding on to that it has huge supply of PMs and many of PMs are underpaid. Is it true?

Is product management as career reallyworth the hype?

Intern

Engineers saying pms shouldn't exist should for once get what they want. Most engineers I know get anxious enough to take leaves once a customer shouts at them lol

Pms shouldn't exist folks should get what they want

Computer Operator

I see a lot of product managers come from an engineering background. They have worked for a few years as an engineer before making the transition. I want to understand the factors that led to the to make the switch. 

Also, how has that turned out after moving to product management? Did you find the things that you were looking for?


PS: It is also common knowledge that PMs are paid less than engineers.

Engineer turned PMs

I work as a PM in a startup and was very surprised to learn from my colleagues that PMs earn lesser than engineers, sometimes by even 30-40%!!

PM Interview Assignment

Consultant, Investment Banking went from sought after careers to fads post 2008 crisis when the world realized that these folks are crooks due to their role in propogating the Great Financial Crisis.

Given the backlash tech companies has been getting and global layoffs, will Product Manager also become a passing fad?

Seeing lot of anti Product Manager sentiment on this app off late. Was Product Management also a fad?

Someone here said engineers can become PM but PM can't become engineers. It can't be more correct than this. But reality is, it sounds goods only in theory.  
  
  I asked this same question to my director, why have you hired us when engineers clearly know more about products than us and are capable?  His answered that before the organisation formally created a team of product managers, it was only engineers that were handling product for decades. But that resulted into substandard products being developed, chaotic product release and consistent drop in revenue. The reason being engineers became backlog managers and engineers beging engineers, never focused on business value. Instead, they focused on technical aspect heavily. Engineers never bothered to check if what they were developing will actually sell in the market or not.  
  
 And mind you, this was a product that all of us use in daily lives. The numbers of users in India alone would be millions. So to summarise, yes, engineers can become PMs but generally they stay loyal to their pedigree of BE/B.Tech and become very shitty PMs. They like to have more technical conversations than strategic discussions and hate things that are not quantifiable, subjective. And business facing people here in forum would know, things are always not quantifiable in business planning, market outlook. It is based on assumptions.  
  
 An excellent PM would be someone who is an engineer but knows how to focus on business value of the product, make it customer oriented etc. I had the pleasure of working of one such PM in my last stint and he was truly outstanding. CEO knew him personally and this is in an organization with thousands of employees

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