Engineers take the credits on engineering, Designers on design aspect, Etc.  Product managers don't can't usually own something and the sense of winning dosnet come very much along.

Welcome to Product Managers's Private Community

Engineers take the credits on engineering,
Designers on design aspect, Etc.

Product managers don't can't usually own something and the sense of winning dosnet come very much along.

Ever feel like what you do is of no worth?

Support Specialist

Ever feel like what you do is of no worth?- Grapevine

I work as a PM in a startup and was very surprised to learn from my colleagues that PMs earn lesser than engineers, sometimes by even 30-40%!!

PM Interview Assignment

Welcome to Software Engineers's Private Community

Money in engineering vs product

Senior Product Manager

1. They are the most overpaid people in India.
2. They have no work life balance and they don't even know what it means.
3. They think they are the best at everything, but they can't do anything right.
4. They are always complaining about their job and how much they hate it.
5. They are never satisfied with their salary or benefits package.
6. They are always looking for new jobs because they think they deserve better than what they currently have.

Would you like to add anything else here?

Software Engineers as seen by a Product Manager...

PM as seen by Engineers: 
 1. Doesn't do anything other than throwing random jargons 
 2. Can't explain what they do other than say how they are not Program manager or something else

Software Engineer

Product Manager

There has been a huge influx of posts dissing roles like Product, Marketing, HR etc. by Techies.

Every other post, or comment is made by them undermining the value of other depts and these cuties think business runs just by their sub-par code.

I understand that their delusion stems from the fact they get paid huge salaries by loss making companies. Which is bound to crash sooner or later. 

Rant over.

Why are Techies so delusional?

Interesting POV. 
  
 Nassim Nicholas Taleb mentions an interesting advice. If you don’t know what to do, follow what the smartest people in your generation are doing. 
  
 These are almost exclusively fulfilling and financially attractive opportunities 
  
 According to him, in the 1990s Lebanon, the smartest kids in undergrad went and became Economists. In the 2010s, the smartest kids became Software Engineers. 
  
 Perhaps, their ego does not stem from the money but from competence.  
  
 However, true charisma is merging that competence with warmth. And for that, you must eliminate the ego.

Founder

PM of 5 years. Same place the whole time. We have a new Engineering Manager. 

They started 2 months ago and at first they seemed like they were very happy to learn our process and products. Then they soon started to manipulate the Engineering team which was very cooperative earlier.

It’s incredibly demotivating. We are a small startup, and the culture isn’t great but seriously no need to be so dismissive of other people’s efforts and feelings. They are just fucking rude. No other word for it really. The problem is that they do NOT get the product side of things so you can’t explain anything to them. They start to physically roll their eyes when you go anymore product than the word “PRD”.

I have never had to deal with someone like this and it’s really stressing me out as they are involved in effectively every project I work on. Advice that isn’t “quit” will be appreciated.

I should also clarify that when I say “product limitations” I really mean how much effort goes into getting things right, the delays are shearing the roadmap apart.

why do Software Engineers act so rude? How to solve this in my team?

As a Product Manager, why do Software Engineers act so rude?

Mostly so called "Design Leaders" "mentors" are always spewing gyaan in my office, LinkedIn, social media but actually fail to implement those stuff. Every other week we have this call where designers are supposed to talk about a topic and every designer comes with such complex presentations, use big words as if they are saving the world or something. They unnecessarily complicate such simple topics and then go on to call themselves designers 🤡

Why are product designers so pretentious?

UX/UI Designer

Welcome to Indian Startups's Private Community

I am honestly just furious at the pay difference between the salary of an sde and a pm. Both work just as hard.

Why are project managers paid less?

Solution Architect

In early startups specially in b2b, product designers are not designers they're rather design support. Always restricted to reach till minimum viable ux.

Though whatever gets shipped at the end is better from past but power of shaping product is largely placed at PM's table and engeneering table (feasibility). 
Now you can avoid complaing and show high agency, partner with PM in defining Product but the default power house is still PM, not the designer. Also you don't have time for this because designs need to shipped to add to next sprint.

At the end you just take a deep breath and sigh because you made something better, bit better if not far from what existed before.

I guess high impact/ product definition work gets done by designer in big orgs only not only early age startups.

Product designer rant

Question to all the software engineers. 

What are some traits of the best PMs you have worked with - could be a behavioural aspect / work ethic / knowledge of the domain etc.

Engineers' views on Product Managers

Let's face it. In some company (read mine) they are the gatekeepers of all things roadmap, obviousness, communication between engineers and business. While in some companies they are nothing but a left over thought acting no more than a typical Program Manager (Google and how Engineers have more say and power in roadmaps).

What are your thoughts on your PM?

Ask Engineers: Thoughts on Product Managers?

Tech Lead

Welcome to Business Roles's Private Community

Young SWE start with double digit salaries, while someone in Non tech will need 5-10 years to reach that level
Even the business roles, the direct revenue generating roles don't pay good traditionally

Funny how techies think everyone gets paid similar
A lot of it changed with startups trying to acquire talent, but not sustainable
Because the market simply doesn’t pay

How do non tech compete with this skewed demand-supply chain?

Tech and Non tech Pay Partiality is something no one talks about

Engineers deserve their pay.  
  
 1 - The code that engineers write are assets of a company. The code might keep running and serving customers for years after a engineer has probably even left the company.  
 On the other hand, the work that most non-tech folks do are not assets, but an operational expense.  
  
 Companies don't derive benefit of a non-tech even beyond the same month the work is performed.  
  
 The difference is the same as painting your house vs brushing your teeth. You don't paint your house everyday but you do brush your teeth. Painting here is a long lasting asset, adds to the value of the house. Brushing is necessary work but with ultimately perishable benefits.  
  
 2 - Code that engineers write provide non-linear benefits. A team of 30 in Zerodha were able to serve 3-5x more customers in the pandemic. This same scalability does not apply to non-tech majdoori. Business has scaled? Hire more heads. Not with code. 
  
  
 Obviously above does not apply to senior managerial folks who build and architect the organisation, set the cultures, create processes. The impact of their work is long lasting and non-linear. But work of junior business non-tech folks - well, they're getting paid as much as the value they create. Low leverage, low pay. Coding is very high leverage. 
  
 Before you jump on me, I worked for sales in years. Then shifted to product. Above two points are a reality whether you like it or not.

Consultant

Sometimes I feel that the work I am doing in the office is worthless. It is providing no value to the client nor does it help me. I am able to answer the technical questions of the client which help in their business decisions and I think that's what keeps me employed. But I still feel I am wasting my time and I really don't know what I should do. Does anyone else face a similar issue or is it only with me? Also have someone come out of this and would like to share their experiences.

Sometimes I feel that the work I am doing is worthless.

Why: I know that with all the job layoffs happening, it's kinda stupid to quit but I just can't. After almost a decade in the startup scene I'm taking a break, probably for good. 

From AI to B2C to ed-tech and more I have worked with startups at every stage of growth and across sectors. Almost in every one of these w/o exception, I have experienced burnout, mindless pressure, and being underpaid because I'm not from an IIT or IIM. 

Context: I love technology, I have been a sci-fi nerd since school and I threw myself into the stories of startups changing the world. But because of family finances and the overall culture of startups I haven't taken a break in about 10 years and it's starting to show. 

I don't have savings to last me more than 3-4 months but at this rate I'll end up checking out of society. 

Unsolicited advice: 
1) Most startups and the VCs that back them know they're going to fail but don't internalise their failure as yours. 
2) Always, always take care of your mental + physical health. Doesn't matter if you're intern and you're expected to slog 12-15 hours in the name of learning. 
3) I missed moments with my ageing mom and dad, school friends and just time to read and relax because I was afraid of missing out on "networking" and "office night outs". Fuck all that, it is and it will always be family and frit first. 


Finally, Fuck all you hustle bro CEOs, they have done more to damage the mentor health of a generation more than any politician. I feel stupid and useless because you can't help posturing and creating panic in the name of disruption. Hope AI takes your jobs too. 

PS: See you on the other side.

I'm laying myself off. Indian start-ups have killed my sense of purpose

Product Marketing Manager

Genuinely curious what is it that you think we do. In real life, I have had a great time with most engineers I have worked with. 

I know there's going to be a lot of trolling but looking for some meaningful answers to improve my rapport with tech folks.

Why do SWEs on GV hate PMs so much?

1. High pressure on timelines- business and top management shits on you if you don’t deliver on time
2. No power to control the outcome- engineers don’t listen to you neither does the design or analytics team, you end up begging for resources
3. Too much politics- business or a senior PM can steal your bandwidth anytime
4. Lack of recognition- if it succeeds business did it, if it fails it is product teams fault (engg never gets blamed for shit)

Ever feel like what you do is of no worth?

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